- Is It Possible To Not Loose Quality -

[ipanther]

Hi!

I got a DivX movie that is exactly 79:15 mins long. I want to turn it into a VCD but when I encode it with VirtualDub, I can see some loss in quality (gets a bit blocky - not too much, but noticable). Can I convert a DivX To VCD without any loss of quality...

Thx IPanther...

[khp]

Originally posted by ipanther
Can I convert a DivX To VCD without any loss of quality...


No, can't be done.

[techno]

er...YES it can be done

the problem is, when u convert to VCD, the quality is poor cause it's MPEG1...that's why there is MPEG2 now (DVD/SVCD)

to improve it a little, make sure that CQ is set to 100 in TMPGENC (assuming that u r using this to convert to VCD) and set the motion search precision to VERY high quality and brighten the video up by +10

or:

take this avi, convert to MPEG2 640*480 or 352*288.

then convert that to VCD

u will c the difference.

it works, I done it sooo many times now, it is in my "Techno's law" "book" now.

Techno

[khp]

Originally posted by techno
er...YES it can be done


NO, it can't be done. First of all, VCD is limited to 352x288, while most divx converted DVD's run at almost twice that. This in itself represents a significant quality loss.
Futhermore mpeg1(vcd) is much less efficient than mpeg4(divx). Which means that the vcd will contain much less detail.

All mpeg compression are lossy, which means that you loose quality every time you recompress.
If it was possible to convert divx to vcd without loss of quality, everyone would be doing it.

It's true that you can make svcd which looses a lot less quality, unfortunatly there is still quite a lot of standalone DVD players that don't support this.

[techno]

khp, I know that but I have done it with the res being 352*288...try it urself, I DID experiment.

Techno

[khp]

Originally posted by techno
khp, I know that

Then why do you insist on spreading lies like this ?. Your statements will only serve to confuse people, and mislead the newbies who simply doesn't know, who to trust.

[techno]

excuse me? u calling me a liar? STOP THE FLAME WAR ON ME.

I think I know what I am talking about, clearly u r just jelous.

no more posts for me in this thread now, I know what I am talking about

out

Techno

[khp]

Originally posted by techno
excuse me? u calling me a liar?


No, you did that all by yourself. You posted something that was completly untrue. I called you on it, and you admitted that you already knew that, what you were saying wasn't true. This is what is commenly defined as a lie, to knowingly say something untrue.
Originally posted by techno
I think I know what I am talking about, clearly u r just jelous.


LOL

Originally posted by techno

no more posts for me in this thread now, I know what I am talking about


Sure run away and hide, when you are not man enough to stand by your own statements. Impressive

[Enchanter]

Without getting involved in the fight, let me quote this:

"gets a bit blocky - not too much, but noticable"

I think he was asking on whether he could convert the DivX to VCD without experiencing the blocks. I'm not into VCDs so I can't answer that question.

I'm out of here.

[MrSnail]

I've converted a few DVDs to VDC and DivX files to VCD

IMO VCD quality is very poor indeed compared to DivX.

Even when I have converted to 2 CD VCD rips they look far worse than DivX.

It may look okish quality on a TV because they have a lower res than a PC screen anyway and you usually sit further away from the screen, but still I have to say the quality still doesn't look that great. Especially considering they take up loads more space than DivX.

[Nielchiano]

Also without getting in the fight...

a DVD is coded in MPEG2 at bitrates of (average) about 6Mbps (=6000kbps)
a DivX is coded in (look-a-like) MPEG4 at 600kbps to 2Mbps, depanding on the person who coded it (I usualy try to stay around 1.2Mbps which gives realy good quality)
a SVCD is also coded in MPEG2 (usualy less than DVD)
a VCD is encoded in MPEG1

Since MPEG gets better each version (unlike some software) it's obvious that a MPEG2 file of 1Mbps will be better than an MPEG1.

Since VCD is MPEG1 at 1.4Mbps, the quality will be ALWAYS less than DVD, usualy less than DivX.

These statements only count on bitrate, offcourse the resolution is also important, but since there are no standard resulutions for DivX and a lot for DVD, I cannot give a full comparison..;

Hope this helps (an kept me out of the fight),
Nielchiano

[techno]

of course what u just said is right, that's why I do it to MPEG2.....ach, u will read about it in my guide when it's done :)

PEACE

[CoWbOyPoEt]

I think all of us here are both trying to help people and find answers to our own questions. Maybe some people found a way to do certain things while other have found another. I found a way to put a complete movie on one cd with excellent quality, but I also got a few people saying it cannot be done. Well, Ive done it. If I receive advise from someone here, I try it, and if it works, great, if not, I try something else.. Lets just keep on trying to help others to find the correct way...

Darts-n-Whiskey, it dont get any better.....

[Echo147]

Everyone should buy TV out capable graphics cards so they can ditch that awful blurry low res VCD format :p

[d-clone]

Originally posted by ipanther
Hi!
Can I convert a DivX To VCD without any loss of quality...

Thx IPanther...

No, this is impossible. You might, if lucky, have no visual quality loss (and thats in the eye of the beholder), but the quality loss is still there.
The only way to not loose quality is to save as an uncompressed avi, but i think even at that you have quality loss.

[techno]

D-clone, u r wrong there!

yeh, u can convert DIVX to VCD without loss of (much) quality.

in TMPGENC, when converting to VCD, don't encode straight away. set the VBV Buffer size to 224 and encode

now watch the quality.

I converted ALL my DVD rips, and from the web, to VCD using that setting, and woow...people are asking me "is it DVD or SVCD?" But it's actually VCD! :)

[d-clone]

Originally posted by techno
D-clone, u r wrong there!



What did I say wrong?

Originally posted by techno

yeh, u can convert DIVX to VCD without loss of (much) quality.



Ok, so I'm not wrong

[techno]

lol.

u only lose (if any) 5% of loss of quality, but usually it's none when converting DIVX to VCD, using the setting i just gave ya.

u were like "NO, U WILL LOSE QUALITY, no shurrup b4 I blow ur head of" :P

:D

[d-clone]

Before you get in a fight with me too:

There is no VISUAL quality loss, I agree, it may LOOK like theres no quality loss, but the quality loss is still there, thats alll I'm saying.

[techno]

Fight??? HELL NO! I'm ur friend! :)

just telling u that there is a way where some quality is not lost.

ur my bud, we never fight :)

we all help each other out :)

[khp]

Are you saying that you can't visually tell the difference between 352x288 and 720*576(480) ?

[techno]

wait until I release Techno's Law........

but for now, ALL I am saying is that, yes, big difference, but when creating a VCD, it tries to take the exact duplicate of the master source

go on, u try it now KHP, come on........

don't say that i talk bull.....cause I am 100000% sure this time that this does work, not that I was always lying!

[setarip]

For MEANINGFUL information regarding VBV buffer size (see below) and other TMPGEnc settings, go to :

http://digvid.info/tmpgenc/settings_video.php

"VBV buffer size
This value specifies the size of the decoders "Video Buffering Verifier". It represents the amount of coded video data that can be buffered by the decoder. At constant bitrates the buffer allows best use of the MPEG compression techniques. It is filled at a constant rate (that of the video stream) and partially emptied when a frame is decoded. The buffer fills up during sequences that compress well and empties during sequences that do not compress well.

Usual values are 40 for producing an MPEG-1 VCD and 112 for an MPEG-2 SVCD. These are the minimum allowed by the specifications, but if you are encoding for a particular player it may have a larger VBV buffer, so these could be increased (producing XVCD or XSVCD discs)."

This certainly makes it seem that a setting of 224 for VCDs is no more effective than a setting of 40...

[techno]

yes, I know what it means. not everything on the internet is the truth u know

go on, test it for urself...u will see.

[setarip]

This thread was started by "ipanther" (not techno), to whom I was merely providing another source of information.


(Your constant argumentative mode, accompanied by "I'm your friend" or "I'm only kidding", wears thin)


"go on, test it for urself...u will see."

I have absolutely no interest in doing this...

[khp]

Originally posted by techno
wait until I release Techno's Law........


So you are magically going to turn apples into oranges ?, excuse me for wanting some proff before I believe such claims. But hey I never claimed to be the world champion of video encoding. So maybe you are right.

Originally posted by techno

but for now, ALL I am saying is that, yes, big difference,


So you admit that you can see the difference ?, this seems to contradict quite a few of your postings.

Originally posted by techno
but when creating a VCD, it tries to take the exact duplicate of the master source

This is completely untrue, it tries to make a copy that is as close to the original as possible. Makeing a digitally exact copy, using any mpeg compression format is theoretically impossible. Because they all rely on DCT compression.
And of course even divx4 encoding at 50kbps, tries to make a copy that is as close to the original as possible, this does not mean that it will succeed.


Originally posted by techno

go on, u try it now KHP, come on........

Been there done that.

Originally posted by techno

don't say that i talk bull


I occasionally point out statements, that are factually incorrect, and I will continue to do so. But I admit that I usually try not to talk to you, because argueing with you is usually completly useless.

Originally posted by techno

cause I am 100000% sure this time that this does work, not that I was always lying!
Just because you believe something to be true, does not make it so. And when you are in clear violation with the laws of nature, I tend to be a bit sceptical.

[techno]

NO KHP, I did not say that I will magically change all of this, this is bull, and u know it clearly. People like you take statements and turn it against them - which is damn right wrong.

You are suppose to be helping people, not starting flame wars, like this - AGAIN. it clearly shows that u are starting trouble. I am TALKING from MY experience, not urs, not the next door neighbours - but mine.

And NO, I ain't saying I am correct all the time, you think that, NOT ME, I am not that type of person.

I have now unsubscribed to this thread because of you KHP, everywhere I go, you have to start something. You are suppose to be helping, not putting people off - like myself

GOODBYE, now go bother someone else.

[khp]

Originally posted by techno
NO KHP, I did not say that I will magically change all of this, this is bull, and u know it clearly.


You claimed, that you would be able to make a vcd the same quality as the souce DVD. If that is not magic I don't know what it is.

Originally posted by techno

People like you take statements and turn it against them

Yes, now you are on to something. I turn statements that can be misunderstood. If you would bother to properly qualify your statements, or at the very least respond within the same context as the question beeing asked. This would not be a problem

Originally posted by techno

You are suppose to be helping people,


Exactly

Originally posted by techno

not starting flame wars, like this - AGAIN. it clearly shows that u are starting trouble.

Now you are getting redicules. As I said before, I usually try to avoid talking to you, because I find it completly impossible to have any meaningfull conversation with you.

However in this case, you responded to one of my posting, by posting something you knew to be untrue (you have already admitted this). I then called you on that, and for some reason you choose to take this personally.

Originally posted by techno

I am TALKING from MY experience, not urs, not the next door neighbours - but mine.

Exactly, you talk from your own limited experience. But you almost always fail to make this clear. Just because you think something is good quality, does not mean that every one else will think the same.

I strongly believe that everyone should be allowed to make up their own minds about which method to use, without any influence from people who claim to be more experience. For this reason I try very hard to make my postings as objective as possible. Why can't you do the same ?


Originally posted by techno

And NO, I ain't saying I am correct all the time, you think that, NOT ME, I am not that type of person.

I try very hard to avoid posting any factually incorrect info. And I usually try to make it clear, when I am merly giving voice to my own opinions.
If you know of any factually incorrect statements in any of my postings, let me know I will be very happy to correct the problem.

Originally posted by techno

I have now unsubscribed to this thread because of you KHP

Nahh you will be back.


Originally posted by techno

everywhere I go, you have to start something.

Completly incorrect, as I have already explained.


Originally posted by techno

You are suppose to be helping, not putting people off

And you are supposed to help people too, not mislead them.
I'am sorry if I can sometimes seem a bit offensive.

Originally posted by techno

GOODBYE, now go bother someone else.

You too then.

[Danski0]

Format | Resolution NTSC/PAL | Video | Audio | MB/min

DivX 640x480 or lower MPEG4 MP3/WMA 1-10
VCD 352x240/352x288 MPEG1 MPEG1 10
SVCD 480x480/480x576 MPEG2 MPEG1 10-20
XSVCD 720x480/720x576 or lowerMPEG2 MPEG1 5-20
DVD 720x480/720x576 MPEG2 N/A 30-70

[khp]

Ahh you just had to dig up this ugly old thing did you ?

Originally posted by Danski0
Format | Resolution NTSC/PAL | Video | Audio | MB/min

DivX 640x480 or lower MPEG4 MP3/WMA 1-10


This is incorrect. According the the divx5 specs the maximum resolution is 1920x1088, and I think mpeg4 allows for even larger resolutions. Of course, for divx files distributed via the internet, bandwidth and quality considerations restrict the choises. But for DVD Backups I mostly use 704*X.

And of course you don't have to use mp3 or wma audio for your divx encoded files, you can use AC3, ogg or even AAC, and many many others of lesser relevance.

And Why do you list the audio on DVDs as N/A ?. Every DVD movie I've ever seen had audio. It can be either AC3,DTS or PCM, and maybe a couple of other formats.

[Danski0]

Sorry about that =)
My misstake..... but the N/A thing was beacuse there is so many standards on DVDs. While on DivX the most used are MP3 and WMA.