Digital Video Forums

Go Back   Digital Video Forums > Disc Formats > DVD Blank Media, Burning, Recording Hardware

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 17 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 8 Sep 2005, 01:55 PM   #16
Junior Member
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 17
Default

Taelon,

I was going to email you personally but I can't since I don't have 10 posts. What I was going to say is that I do not consider 5 to 10 revolutions per second that fast, this correlates very closely to 3.5 m/S.

Also, this maybe a bit picky, if it is I apologize but the reason for my posts isn't to restate what everyone knows.....labels cause problems....the reason is to point out why they cause problems. The reason is to help persuade label makers to make "proper" labels for DVD's.

BTW, I appreciate your posts, they are excellent.
dvdshare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 04:23 PM   #17
Digital Video Specialist
Digital Video Specialist
 
Taelon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 887
Default

dvdshare,

I didn't mean to imply that your tests weren't relevant or interesting. I admire the extent to which you've tackled the problem and documented the results. I appreciate your efforts, I just wanted to clearly state the answers to the OP's initial questions, especially with regards to the threads title "DVD sticky label debate", obviously if everyone agreed that sticky labels were bad, there wouldn't be a debate.

We know that a DVD disc spins at a rate which provides a linear speed of 3.49 m/s, the point I was trying to make is that the rotational speed has to vary due to the spiral track layout (which everyone may not know). Any mass which is added to the disk will change the moment of inertia, the effects of which will likely be most apparent when switching from an inner track (the menu for example) to one near the outer edge of the disk.

You might be interested in these links to technical specs which I've only recently found. I particularly like the Pioneer DVD Technical Guide which I mentioned earlier. Another highly technical reference which I stumbled across the other day is this ECMA standard for 120mm RO disks.
__________________

Start Here!
DVD Shrink for Dummies Guide
Search the Incredible Knowledgebases
DVD Shrink FAQ's - DVD Decrypter FAQ's
Eliminate CRC & Read Errors
Cleaning & Polishing Guide

Advanced DVD Reauthoring Essentials
PgcEdit v6.1 - Muxman - PgcDemux - VobBlanker v2.0.1
Taelon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8 Sep 2005, 11:09 PM   #18
Junior Member
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 17
Default

Taelon,

Thanks and ok. Again I would of put this reply on personal email but since I now (counting this one) have only 4 posts it will take 6 more posts till I can email you and the others.

The other thing is, yes I realize my discussion is a bit off topic per the original thread. If you guys think I should open up another thread or put my comments in a more appropriate thread please let me know (I do not mind your suggestions since I am a Newbie).

Also following are some links which are appropriate information given what I have been discussing (I also found them by web surfing):

Following link is about the physical requirements of the DVD (Same as Taelon but more info.)
http://www.mscience.com/tilt.html

Following link is a nice tutorial on jitter, at least I found it useful:
http://www.optical-disc.com/techpape...omeasureit.pdf
dvdshare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9 Sep 2005, 11:23 PM   #19
Junior Member
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 17
Default

All,

In thinking about the experiments I did, I think it only points to bowling of the DVD by the labels as the main problem of applying labels to DVD......i.e., the DVD is no longer flat.

Also I now believe it isn't surface tension. I believe what is going on is that paper doesn't stretch, it is stiff. When the DVD spins, the acrylic base probably stretches. DVD probably are designed this way, as long as the DVD stretches uniformly the DVD readers shouldn't have any problems reading since bending is defined with respect to laser reading light bounce angle (see Taelon earlier link reference on this).

The paper label being stiff doesn't stretch and therefore bowls toward the applied label. This explanation makes a lot more sense given the above experiments and what other forums have been stating about DVD labels causing problems than my original explanation of surface tension.

This would mean what the DVD label material is made of is very important as well as it's thickness, mass and aging properties. The specific DVD label I have been using thus far which doesn't cause any DVD read problems is NEATO by Fellowes photo Matte quality full face labels. The Reorder INFO. ID is 863100. Again though I have only affirmed these labels do not cause any problems short term, I do not know if the labels will get "stiff" or contract long term.

Given the above it is highly likely that any "photo" quality DVD label will work by any manufacturer and it is equally highly likely that any "pure" paper DVD label probably will not work.

A good DVD label therefore will not contract the DVD and will expand/stretch as much as the acrylic base when spinning. The properties just mentioned should stay constant with age, humidity and temperature. Given all of this, I think label companies could engineer an inexpensive DVD label which would work.
dvdshare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9 Sep 2005, 11:38 PM   #20
Not a god of digital video
 
blutach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: is everything!
Posts: 24,628
Default

KUTGW dvdshare - very interesting info.

Regards
__________________
Les

Essential progs - [PgcEdit] [VobBlanker] [MenuShrink] [IfoEdit] [Muxman] [DVD Remake Pro] [DVD Rebuilder] [BeSweet] [Media Player Classic] [DVDSubEdit] [ImgBurn]

Media and Burning - [Golden Rules of Burning] [Media quality] [Fix your DMA] [Update your Firmware] [What's my Media ID Code?] [How to test your disc]
[What's bitsetting?] [Burn dual layer disks safely] [Why not to burn with Ner0] [Interpret Ner0's burn errors] [Got bad playback?] [Burner/Media compatibility]

Cool Techniques - [2COOL's guides] [Clean your DVD] [Join a flipper] [Split into 2 DVDs] [Save heaps of Mb] [How to mock strip] [Cool Insert Clips]

Real useful info - [FAQ INDEX] [Compression explained] [Logical Remapping of Enabled Streams] [DVD-Replica] [Fantastic info on DVDs]


You should only use genuine Verbatim or Taiyo Yuden media. Many thanks to www.pcx.com.au for their supply and great service.

Explore the sites and the programs - there's a gold mine of information in them

Don't forget to play the Digital Digest Quiz!!! (Click here)

blutach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Sep 2005, 12:51 AM   #21
Junior Member
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 17
Default Label experiment #3

All,

Before I begin I would just like to let 2Cool, Lt. Columbo, Taelon, blutach and Rbrtpl know that I feel honored that they read/comment on my posts.

I just got done performing what I believe is an interesting round of experiments on DVD labels. I wanted to see if I could show if stiffness or surface tension was the main problem of DVD bowling. Cutting to the chase, if you don't want to read all of the thread, my experiment wasn't conclusive but it did point heavily to stiffness of the paper as the problem.

What I did is take out the AVERY DVD labels which are almost pure paper. I pre-wet them on the original 81/2x11" paper and let them dry over night (air dry for about 10 hours). In the morning I examined the labels, as I expected they had shrunk, approximately 1mm. One could see this cause there was a seperation between the 8.5x11" paper frame and the full face dvd sticky label. What I do not know is how much the frame shrunk and how much the DVD label shrunk, but I do know their was shrinkage.

I placed these pre-shrunk (like pre-washed jeans) labels on DVD's. Now if surface tension was the dominant factor then the DVD's should play, since the paper shouldn't shrink anymore. If stiffness or lack of flexibility is the main problem I should see pixalation, skipping and loss of tracking....same as before. Long story short the pre-shrunk Avery labels performed no better than before, the DVD skipped, pixed and lost track.

The next thing I did is wet down the pre-shrunk label on the DVD which I just stated skipped and lost track. As everyone knows wet paper loses a lot if not all of its stiffness properties, from the DVD's perspective the wet label would be elastic. Again long story short the wetted DVD label played with no problems. Also I should let everyone know when the label dried the DVD skipped and lost track again.

I have other things to say but I will post those comments/experiments seperately such that the information is digestable.
dvdshare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Sep 2005, 01:22 AM   #22
Not a god of digital video
 
blutach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: is everything!
Posts: 24,628
Default

Great info dvdshare - it does seem to me that sticky labels are pretty iffy things. Plus:

1. You can't see 'em when they are in their cases; and
2. Ditto when they're playing, so

Why bother with a label on a backup at all?

Regards
blutach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Sep 2005, 01:25 AM   #23
Junior Member
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 17
Default Why should "photo paper" be better for DVD labels

All,

I accidentally or by God's intervention got Neato's DVD photo matte labels, which if you have been reading this thread have thus far worked. The question is why should "photo paper" be better than "pure" paper for DVD labels. Going to Google, I found three links which helps to potentially give us an answer:

http://www.jetprintphoto.com/c/photopaper.asp
http://www.canon.com/technology/ij/03.html
http://www.ilford.com/html/us_englis.../how_suits.htm

Looking at the first link, photo paper consists of at least 4 layers. Most of the layers are polymer based, i.e., plastic. Generally plastic stretches and isn't as "stiff" as paper.

Given the DVD label is made of good quality photo paper, you therefore have a chance that it will not mess up your DVD. The photo paper is engineered for good photos and as far as I can tell they are not engineered to have good mechanical stretching capability as compared to the DVD material stretching capability. I would argue though (I maybe wrong, I am no expert in this area it would be good if some photo paper engineer commented here) that many of the properties that the engineers are concerned with in getting a good photo image are also friendly to the DVD requirments.

The one area where photo paper and let us say if someone would engineer a perfect/good DVD label paper would be to characterize and purposefully build in stretchiness, which correlate closely to the DVD material with respect to the variables of age, temperature variation, difference in manufacturers, light, humidity and DVD mechanical requirements.

As far as I can tell no paper, label or printer manufacturer has engineered paper specifically for DVD labels (If I am wrong this would be nice to know).

Going back to the first link concerning the technology of photo paper, the one area which can be paper (cellulose) is the base material. For DVD labels it would probably be better that the base material would be film, i.e., plastic. Paper isn't necessarily bad, it would depend on how thick this layer is and if the overall mechanical properties are more wood like or more plastic like. In this case we would want more plastic like.

A simple test of the DVD labels would be to wet it down a lot and then to let it air dry. If the label curls or/and gets wavy it is probably cellulose (wood) base if however it just lies there like a dead dog then it is probably plastic base. We want the plastic base, dead dog, label.

A comment here, there are photo paper which are advertised to not to be affected by water, if there are DVD labels with the same advertisement these would be good candidates to try for DVD labels........I haven't seen any DVD labels which claim to be water resistant though.
dvdshare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Sep 2005, 01:49 AM   #24
Junior Member
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 17
Default Found weakness in Neato DVD photo matte label--Ahhhh

Ok, I found a weakness in Neato DVD photo matte label........(really dissappointed). Given all of the experiments I did, at least to me, bowling of the DVD (bowling toward the applied label) is the major reason for DVD labels causing problems. BTW, Blutach I agree the best solution is to print labels with a printer which can apply printers directly to the label.....this avoids all of the problems I have been talking about with sticky labels, the problem is I don't think I can convince my wife to buy a $200 or $300 printer right now.

Humidity affects paper greatly. To test if the Neato DVD photo matte label would stand up to humidity I applied the label, verified that it played ok with the applied new label on the DVD after which I dunked the label in water (wet spunged the label side). I then allowed the label to air dry. Placed it in the DVD, Wham!!! it wouldn't play, it pixeled, skipped and lost track just like the Avery label.

Up unitil this test the Neato label passed every abuse I could throw at it, 100 degree all day in the car, putting it in the refrigerator for one hour, putting in the freezer for one hour, pressure applying the label (smoothing the label forcefully with my thumg and fingers), the Neato label passed all of the previous test. If failed the water test however. My prediction before the experiment was done was that it was going to fail, the reason is I suspected that the base material was cellulose (wood/paper).

In practicallity it may not be as bad as I made the test. If we have a paper engineer reading this thread he may point out that humidity affects on paper are different than wetting the paper, if this weren't so then all books pages would curl with time because of the humidity, they don't so my test is only valid if you are using the label in a VERY humid enviroment.....essentially you are swimming.

In summation I think I am ok in using the Neato photo matte DVD label, however if anyone knows of any DVD photo paper with a film base instead of cellulose base please let me know.
dvdshare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Sep 2005, 02:05 AM   #25
Junior Member
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 17
Default Aging of photo paper specifically of Neato's label I am using

One thing I have been concerned with in all my testing is that valid criticism is that my resulsts for the Neato's DVD photo matte label do not have any information in how they will perform a year or two from now.

I agree with this, but in thinking about how photo-paper is engineered it seems that the quality photo paper go through a lot of pain to make their photo paper stable, in other words the paper assists in the photo from aging. Given this I expect that most photo paper to generally maintain their characteristics over time. I do not know, but I would guess that the main aging component is UV light over time, but all quality photo paper are engineered to resist UV light degradation.

One could argue that the glue will age over time. I agree here, but this is a problem label manufacturers have been dealing with since there was sticky labels so I would expect them to be well versed in this area. The other thing is I would expect the main items which would change the glue properties would be UV light and finger oils. Here again photo paper would resist damage by UV light and protect the underlying areas to finger oils.

I have also discounted the arguement, which my begining post claimed, that the glue is responsible for mechanical surface tension stress. Though this could be a possibility it is much more likely that the glue offers no mechanical properties other than to mate the label with the DVD. There are reasons for this, but people probably will not care to hear why.

Bottom line, my guess would be that tne Neato photo matte DVD labels are ok to use for DVD labeling. However with this said, I would switch labels within a heart beat if someone found a DVD label with a film base material instead of cellulose.
dvdshare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Sep 2005, 08:07 AM   #26
Not a god of digital video
 
blutach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: is everything!
Posts: 24,628
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdshare
BTW, Blutach I agree the best solution is to print labels with a printer which can apply printers directly to the label.....this avoids all of the problems I have been talking about with sticky labels, the problem is I don't think I can convince my wife to buy a $200 or $300 printer right now.
Can you convince her to lash out a couple of bux for a sharpie? Cos that's what I use and never have any problems at all.

That's what I was getting at in my previous post -I mean, who cares what they look like in comparison to how they play?

Regards
blutach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Sep 2005, 02:49 PM   #27
Junior Member
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 17
Default

Blutach,

I am not making a backup.

I am making an original production DVD. It is a small production but it would be a nice touch, put light in the clients (parents) eyes if a nice label were attached.....rather than a hand markup job.

All, I am thinking about buying an Epson 200 or an Epson R320 any comments???
dvdshare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 Sep 2005, 03:35 PM   #28
Not a god of digital video
 
blutach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: is everything!
Posts: 24,628
Default

Fair nuff.

Regards
blutach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 Sep 2005, 10:36 AM   #29
Lord of Digital Video
Lord of Digital Video
 
tigerman8u's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,124
Default

would a hub label be sufficient for your purposes ? I have read good results about them but never used one myself.
tigerman8u is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13 Sep 2005, 01:45 PM   #30
Junior Member
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 17
Default Found the Perfect DVD Sticky Label!!!!!

All,

I can't believe it, I have found the "perfect" sticky DVD label. I found it in Office Max it is Avery's Matte White Film DVD Labels, #8962. The upper left corner actually has a banner saying, "Does not affect DVD performance!". At the bottom it states "Designed to work on single sided DVDs".

If you have been following my thread you know that I came to the conclusion that film based DVD full face labels would be ideal. Guess what, the Avery labels are film based. On the back it states that DVD's are sensitive to disk shape and that wood based labels absorb water and this current DVD is film based and DOESN'T absorb water.

I got home and tried it out, printed great and the DVD played great!!!!! Also the label is thin to lighten the load. One can tell immediately upon peeling this label that it is film based (plastic) and not wood/cellulose based!

BTW, I have been reading on other forums that the Epson 200 and Epson R320 (or is it R300) are great printers.

Anyways for anyone wanting a great DVD sticky label with no problems, buy the AVERY DVD label #8962!!!!
dvdshare is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT +10. The time now is 10:09 AM.

Kirsch designed by Andrew & Austin


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright © 1999 - 2011 Digital Digest

Visit DivXLand   Visit dvdloc8.com