DVD sticky label debate

[rago88]

Could someone please settle this argument about stick on labels bleeding thru media therefore ruining it?

I know people, including myself who have sticky labels on media from way back when CD stomper was born and have had no problems but,

My question concerns when you do have that problem and the media will not play correctly,
Can you make a fresh copy of that disk since you are only copying digital info even if you need to go thru decryption/shrink or some of the gems we all use?

In other words, does the label screw up the media and the
digital info or just the media?

also curious what many of you use as an alternative to stick-ons excluding HP's Lite-on....

T.R.

[LT. Columbo]

all the label does it make the disc go out of balance and makes it hard for the laser to read. (when problems occur). it doesn't harm the data. i use envelope labels.

[BSpielbauer]

I have read enough warnings and cautions on these forums from others that I decided not take any chances with any of the sticky labels. To be honest, this issue is one that is very difficult to actually get valid, documented information on. You can find lots of people who had problems with DVD discs that had sticky labels applied to them. You can also find people who swear they have yet to see any problem, even after two and three and four years of burning. This is the sort of issue which is very difficult to actually conduct any sorts of TESTS.

One can always argue, to those with problems, that their problems were due to poor media, or a bad batch of media, or burning to fast, or too slow, or errors in the burn from the start, or from the dye beginning to run, or to fade, etc., and that their problems had nothing to do with the sticky labels.

One can also argue, to those who have never had a single problem, even after years of experiences, that they are just living on "borrowed time," and their problems may begin next month, or next quarter, or next year...

With so many conflicting reports from BOTH SIDES of this debate, who knows? And, how can one possibly hope to "prove it"?

I decided not to take chances, on this one. For quite awhile, I did no labeling at all (each backup I make is stored in its own case, and in our house the DVD or CD always goes right back into its case, anyway).

Recently, I did invest in an Espon R200 inkjet printer (on sale for $69.99 at Office Depot). It prints directly onto inkjet-printable DVDs. I am happy with this method, and wish that I had made this investment much earlier.

One could also factor this into the equation -- the current DVD is probably living on borrowed time. Although no one can predict how successful the upcoming HD DVD format will be, or the Blue Ray format will be, there is almost no doubt that one or the other (or both) will gradually make our current DVDs seem like "quaint old" relics of the past. This will not occur right away, in late 2005 or early 2006, when those players are $1000. However, the earliest VHS machines were $1800 and $2000. The earliest DVD players were around $1000. And, just as the earliest DVD Recorders were around $1000, we all know what will happen, especially now that the growing number of high definition displays in people's homes has become more than significant.

Based on my reading on this issue, you are likely to find roughly the same number of people who say "don't stick a label on" as you are people who say "I've been doing it ever since I began."

Just my thoughts,

-Bruce

[rago88]

HEY..
Wouldn't it be great if you could scan the dvd and print it out on
a dvd envelope with no see-thru front?
[or can that be done?

Anyway, many good points you brought up about it all.
Yes, the current dvd is living on borrowed time but "VHS is dead"
has been the battle cry for sometime now so I don't think it will that soon..
Can't see netflixs or blockbuster going strictly blue ray or HD
for many yrs only because over 85% of households have not switched to High def tv's yet...
But like taxes and death, it's on it's way someday....

[nwg]

This is what I think.

If you have a decent player that holds the disc in place securely. Then you will have no problems. I used to do labels and my Sony NS900 played every one flawless. The drive mechanism was very advanced in its day. Also, Sony players come with precision drive (the latest one is version 3). This can make the player read a DVD even if the disc is warped or off balance a lot easier.

However, too many players come with cheap DVD ROM drives and play up on labelled DVD's. I had a £20 player that came with a rubbish Sanyo drive. It did't like labelled discs on bit.

[dvdshare]

All,

I have read various reports about DVD labels "not working". Everyone and there brother says it is because the DVD is "unbalanced". While this maybe the easy dog to kick, I don't believe that is the main reason for DVD labels causing problems. On my own I decided to investigate this problem, the following results are not conclusive but heavily weigh that "unbalancing" ISN'T the main culprit (however unbalancing may contribute).

On a current project I bought Avery CD/DVD sticky labels and as been reported by many people before placing the labels on the DVD did cause the DVD's to misread every time (I tried 8 different AVERY labels) I placed the AVERY labels on the DVD. Also, as reported by others, every time I removed the label the DVD began to work. However, the place it messed up on my DVD was ALWAYS at the end (single layer 4.7G DVD+R). I suspected it was something OTHER than the perpetual kick the dog of unbalanced DVD causing the problem, since the problem occurred roughly at the same spot irregardless of carefully the label was applied. What I expected was that the label was applying mechanical stress. The only mechanical stress I knew of which the sticky label would apply which would be great enough to "distort" the DVD was surface tension (lateral force parrallel to the DVD surface), most probably caused by the glue/disk surface interaction. My guess is that the label was effectively pulling in towards the center of the disk, thus "bowling" the DVD. This would mean that the beginning of the DVD would read fine, which it did, but the end information would be distorted/pixeled and should lose track which it did. There is control servo information buried in the DVD such that the reading arm can keep track. Since the DVD was totally losing tracking at the end of the DVD, it would make sense that the outside of the DVD was being lifted thus bowling and losing total tracking.

To test this I took a "bad" DVD with a sticky label on it. With the label side up I grabbed the center of the DVD with one finger and then I pushed down on the outside edges of the DVD, uniformally along the outside edge. I placed it in the DVD, yeah you guessed it it played. To test the balance I sped it up to 16x, no problems. This however WASN'T a solution, the reason is in bending down the outside edge of the DVD and pulling up on the center of the DVD with one finger caused the center of the DVD to crack (it didn't crack upto the information area just around the spindle). This I knew was bad and wouldn't be a solution, however it was an important affirmation that surface tension was most likely the culprit. Also one should gain a healthy respect for how much surface tension force there is since I effectively had to bend the DVD enough that it cracked around the spindle.

While it is important that DVD's are balanced, it is probably more important that DVD's are FLAT. To make a DVD player lose track of a 750 nm (that is 750 x 10-9 meter) doesn't take a lot of "bowling" of the DVD. For people who are storing only a little amount of information on a DVD, let us say less than 2G they probably can pretty much use any label (given you are careful about balancing, I would reccomend using a CD/DVD label applicator which centers the label). For people like me who are using the whole disk, 4.3G or greater you will be very sensitive to WHO's lable you use, the manufacturer. I also did one other experiments to see if it was surface tension, but I do not have room to describe this one but it pointed to surface tension being the problem as well.

Ok, what I did quite out of a Lark was buy another CD/DVD label manufacturers product, NEATO by Fellowes, which I bought at Target. Long story short I have tried 8 out of 8 of these labels and have had no problem, they all work. Since I believe the main culprit of the DVD labeling process causing problems is surface tension, I did some other experiments with Neato to see if they would hold up. I put the DVD in the refrigerator for one hour, took it out and played it right away (yes at the end) there was no problems. I also today left the DVD out in my car, it was probably 100 degrees in my care all day, it played with no problems. I have a friend who has a tempermental DENTON DVD player and at first it wouldn't play then we popped it out and popped in again and it played fine.

If it is surface tensiong, which I believe it is then different temperature expansion rates of the two different materials can cause problems (which is why I did the temperature test). The other is the drying and the type of glue, I suspect that NEATO accidentally used a glue on the back of their labels which exert a very small if any lateral force when applied. Also it maybe a function of the type of paper, I noticed NEATO has somewhat of a glossy surface so it might be that the NEATO paper has been impregnated with the "right stuff" to reduce surface tension. Almost everything can affect surface tension, the thickness of the glue maybe a variable or/and the chemical reaction of the glue with the surface the disk (this is what I believe is happening to the AVERY CD/DVD label).

Time may also kill my DVD, it might happen that given enough time the current NEATO label I have may dry in such away to exert a lot of surface tension, thus bowling my DVD again. I don't have enough time with these labels to say whether my DVD's will die in 6 months or a year or so. The temperature testing however gives me hope. Also I did a pressure test on the NEATO label and again the DVD played, however the AVERY label when pressed on hard made the DVD tracking worse.....so here I have hope as well.

Hopefully NEATO will not change their glue, paper, thickness of the glue or/and hopefully someone from AVERY will read this thread and investigate how much surface stress their labels create on a DVD. It isn't a lot but it is enough stress to lift the outside DVD edges such that the 750nm pits essentially disappear to the DVD reading head (if one thinks about it it doesn't take a lot of angle to deflect the main lobe of light).

BTW, one maybe able to "see" the stress. The reason is that the pits and tracking is small enough (I think it is on the order of visual light) that you can see difraction grating (phasing of the light) when you look at the bottom of the DVD under a light. If there is a stress you probably should see patterns in a fully written DVD, especially compared to another DVD with no stress (no label). I may try this experiment, if I am correct one should be able to see this.

[2COOL]

Damn dvdshare...for your first post, that sure is a long one. Welcome to the forum and thanks for your input!

[fritzi93]

DVDshare: Bingo!

There's been a long, drawn-out argument at videohelp on that one. Without getting into too much detail, as a contractor I'm familiar with certain pre-stressed materials, some involving various cellulose (paper) coatings. (Medium Density Fiberboard, for instance.) Now, some people simply refuse to believe paper can exert tension sufficient to warp something out of plane. I'm here to say flatly that it can, particularly if it is on one side only of a given material. Change temperature and/or humidity, and the paper, well, it moves. Expanding or contracting. Expanding's no problem, paper can't "push" something out of plane. It can "pull", however.

The cure is to remove the full-face label with WD-40 or warm soapy water, whatever you prefer. Chances are good your read errors will go away. Oh, and hub/core labels don't seem to exhibit the same problem.

[anonymez]

i say forget about labels, unless you have a quality standalone player, or go with 'lightscribe technology', as i just might be soon, when the new LG comes out

for those who don't know what it is:

once you burn the disc, you simply flip it over and put it back into your dvd drive. the burner will use the same laser it burned with to make a label on the other side. no fuss, no muss

i wouldn't buy it right now, though. it takes around 1/2 hour to do the label. LG claims thier upcoming burner will do it in 5 min

more info at http://www.lightscribe.com if you're interested...

[blutach]

Thanks for those experiments dvdshare!

I guess in technical terms we are talking about something that increases jitter to outside acceptable limits?

Regards

[Taelon]

Originally Posted by blutach

Thanks for those experiments dvdshare!

I guess in technical terms we are talking about something that increases jitter to outside acceptable limits?

Regards

It would affect jitter measurements, but I think the actual term would be to say it can throw tilt out of spec:

The disc tilt limit is 0.8in the radial direction, and 0.3in the tangential direction. The specification for the radial direction is larger in consideration of the fact that it's easy for the disc to curve into a bowl shape.
...
As a side note, there have been reports of degradation due to disc tilt resulting from the use of improper cases and packing.

from http://www.pioneer.co.jp/crdl/tech/dvd/2-2-e.html

[dvdshare]

All,

I just got done performing what I consider conclusive experimental proof that surface tension by sticky paper labels is the main reason putting labels on DVD's is causing problems.

First let me go into why surface tension creates a relatively strong force. Surface tension is the combined force of each molecue pulling in the same direction, in this case the label is pulling the DVD towards the center of the DVD, thus bowling the DVD. A feel for surface (BTW before I forget thanks for everyone who replied, I did read your replies and learned and appreciated your replies) is to compare surface tension to a tug of war. If each individual is a 100lb weaking and individually cannot lift a 100lbs, the 100lb weakling can exert a lot of force if you have a 100 of them pulling on a rope all in the same direction at the same time.

Given the model above we can reduce the tug of war force by 100 people by cutting the rope periodically. Let us say we cut the rope in 10 equal lengths and therefore there is only 10 people per segment. We have reduced the force any rope can exert by a factor of 10. Cutting the rope more will reduce the surface tension more.

Ok, you guys are probably ahead of me by now. What I decided to do is score the the label, essentially the same thing they do when they pour concrete is they score the concrete every once in awhile to reduce stress and expansion forces. I grabbed a DVD with an AVERY label, I verified it wouldn't play, in fact over half of this DVD wouldn't play, actually close to 2/3 of it wouldn't play. I decided to score the DVD label with a sharp knife. The pattern I chose was a checkerboard pattern. The 1st score was just a crosshair pattern centered on the DVD, the cross hair ran the length of the DVD. I then tried to play the DVD, it didn't play (I should of recored how much extra played per scoring, but I didn't think of that until I was done). Then I scored the DVD again parallel to the x and y axis, if you are counting this was an additional 4 scores for a total of 6 scores. I tried playing the DVD, again it didn't play at the end (but this time I noticed it played more, gave me hope but I didn't record how much more). I then scored parallel to the x and y axis 1/2 way between each segment, if you are counting this was an additional 8 scores for a total of 14 scores. THE DVD PLAYED!!! No skipping, no pixeling just played like it should of.

Also, I went on the web and searched for DVD specifications. The DVD is only spinning around 3.5 m/S, in other words if you were walking a bit on the brisk side it would keep up with you. Essentially this means it isn't spinning that fast, some peoples comment lead one to believe the DVD is spinning at incredible speeds......it isn't it is relatively slow. This makes sense since the DVD's are made of acrylic based material so it would have to spin "slowly". This tends to dampen the arguement of the DVD being off balance as the major problem. I would however not totally discount this as a problem, I just don't think it is the major problem.

Ok, I believe I have experimentally shown that surface tension bowling the DVD is the major labeling problem. Now I am going to work on some experiments to solve the surface tension problems. I already have one in mind and can't wait to try it.

[LT. Columbo]

well done, excellent forensic approach. it is VERY rare for me to read a post when i see one this long---but i noticed right away the technicalities. i'm impressed. a lot of this depends on the drive mechanism of the player too. i use avery envelope labels on my discs(therefore are off balance) and my toshiba don't ever miss a beat with em. but these guys stick REAL good. once they are on, you won't get them off without destroying them.

[Chewy]

"Also, I went on the web and searched for DVD specifications. The DVD is only spinning around 3.5 m/S, in other words if you were walking a bit on the brisk side it would keep up with you. Essentially this means it isn't spinning that fast, some peoples comment lead one to believe the DVD is spinning at incredible speeds......it isn't it is relatively slow. This makes sense since the DVD's are made of acrylic based material so it would have to spin "slowly". This tends to dampen the arguement of the DVD being off balance as the major problem. I would however not totally discount this as a problem, I just don't think it is the major problem."

at 1x maybe, you've obviously never put a cracked cd into a computer drive
and had it explode, and doesn't the term debate imply both sides have some
merit, in this case I would say that was not the case, vbg.

[Taelon]

Originally Posted by dvdshare

Also, I went on the web and searched for DVD specifications. The DVD is only spinning around 3.5 m/S, in other words if you were walking a bit on the brisk side it would keep up with you. Essentially this means it isn't spinning that fast, some peoples comment lead one to believe the DVD is spinning at incredible speeds......it isn't it is relatively slow.

I've seen some conflicting information on this and haven't checked the specs (yet) to verify the numbers listed in this table from this page at DVD Workshop

SPECIFICATION

DVD-ROM

CD-ROM

COMMENT

Speed (rotational: 1x)

570-1600 rpm

200-500 rpm

DVD has a faster rotational speed.

One thing is certain, the DVD does spin at 2x or 3x the speed of a CD, the other thing to point out is that the highest RPM listed is actually when the laser is near the center of the disk, and it slows down as it approaches the edge (because the data rate needs to remain constant). Here is a cool animation at How Stuff Works which illustrates this.

It sounds like you're having alot of fun verifying that adding sticky labels to DVD's cause problems, so I'm not going to dissuade your efforts. However I'd guess the majority of people here Know that labels can cause problems, and therefore recommend Not to use them.

But lets address rago88's original questions:

Originally Posted by rago88

Could someone please settle this argument about stick on labels bleeding thru media therefore ruining it?

That is false, the label doesn't cause bleedthru on DVDs, they are constructed differently from CDs. On a pressed CD the reflective layer is much closer to the label than on a DVD, scratches on a CDs label side can actually damage the foil layer, but you'd need to scratch about halfway through a DVD to damage the foil. Here is a simplified cross section view of a pressed CD. Compare that to this cross section view of a single sided DVD.

Originally Posted by rago88

In other words, does the label screw up the media and the digital info or just the media?

It will only screw up the media, but this of course can cause problems when trying to rip the info from the media at a later date because the disk itself is bowed, which skews the foil layers tilt out of specification as I mentioned earlier in the thread.

If you're having problems when trying to recover the data from a labeled DVD, you can try removing the label. I haven't personally done this but have read that products such as 'WD-40' and 'Goof Off' can loosen the bond of the glue and allow you to remove the label, without damaging the disk. You should be very careful not to stress the disk too much since this could crack the internal foil layers, and should really only be used as a 'last resort' if the data can't be read. Also if you do use any petroleum products on the disk be sure to give it a thorough cleaning afterwards.

Originally Posted by rago88

curious what many of you use as an alternative to stick-ons excluding HP's

I personally use a 'Sharpie' marker, that's probably what the majority of people use as well. Many people use printable media, these can be printed on directly by some inkjet printers and can give professional looking results. The HP lightscribe technology is still relatively new and although it's cool, I don't think many people consider the additional time it takes to scribe the label (up to 30 minutes) or the additional cost of the media are worth the results.

hope this helps