EFF blasts Microsoft over DRM validation

**admin** · 1 May 2008, 06:55 PM

Quote:

The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) has taken Microsoft to task over plans to shut down its digital rights management validation servers.

The servers authenticate purchases made from the now-defunct MSN Music service, allowing users to authorise new computers to play purchased songs.

http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/22...icrosoft-music

drfsupercenter · 2 May 2008, 05:48 AM

Does this include Zune Marketplace? Or is that a totally different store?

**admin** · 2 May 2008, 01:08 PM

I think this is for the defunct MSN store (replaced by Zune Marketplace most likely). This is the danger of DRM'd content ... at any moment, the content owners can decide not to let you use the content or to force you to pay again for them.

drfsupercenter · 2 May 2008, 08:22 PM

Once you have the license on your computer, usually the file will play fine until your licenses get reset or you have to reformat or something...

And that's why I'm using Amazonmp3 now, no licenses to worry about and it's 256kbps, way higher than the competition.

DrinkOrDie · 4 May 2008, 01:42 PM

You won't ever catch me paying for DRM protected music or video. That's like paying rent for an apartment, but you have to get permission every time you want to get in. In the case of people who purchased music from MSN Music Service, Microsoft holds the key to playing the file, and it sounds like they are about to throw away the key. So what exactly are you paying for? Nothing.

drfsupercenter · 5 May 2008, 08:13 PM

Well there's a certain program... I can't talk about it though since I'd get in trouble, but let's just say it lets you in to your apartment automatically once you got in the first time

And yeah. I don't buy DRM protected unless I have to... there's the occasional new release that I can only find on iTunes, and then I'll get it and convert it to mp3 (burn to CD and rerip). As far as videos go, I stopped buying iTunes videos once I realized there was no way to convert them or even use them outside of iTunes, but I get the free ones each week... that just sit there wasting hard drive space.

DrinkOrDie · 6 May 2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drfsupercenter

Well there's a certain program... I can't talk about it though since I'd get in trouble, but let's just say it lets you in to your apartment automatically once you got in the first time

Yes, I'm aware of the many ways to do that. It's not very difficult to free an MP3 from the DRM. The point is, that would be cheating. One you do that, it's no different than downloading for free. So now you'd be in a situation where you paid for it, but you're still a "criminal" because you created a copy that violates the terms of usage on the original.

**admin** · 6 May 2008, 01:55 PM

Yes, if you tried to break DRM, you could be fined or even go to jail. However, the content owners could "break" your ability to play the content you've already purchased and it's perfectly legal (the licensing terms will allow this). This is where it's unfair to consumers and why DRM should be fought until nobody dares to use it anymore (just like in the music industry right now).

DrinkOrDie · 6 May 2008, 02:25 PM

It's funny. Nobody seemed to care back in the day when radio stations were playing whole album sides without commercials, all weekend long. All one had to do is pop in a blank cassette and push the record button. Ironically enough, cassettes is all they sold back then, unless you wanted vinyl. Then I could use my dual cassette recorder and make all the copies I wanted. All the sudden, now that it's digital, everyone's making a fuss.

I guess content owners are trying to make DRM work because it's all they got. I'd fight for my property with no weapons other than a toothpick if it came right down to it. The thing is, they are making the product less valuable every day. When you could buy a cassette or vinyl record, then make all the copies you wanted, they were making tons of money. People were buying them by the 100 millions.

There is definitely a war going on. It's time to fight. If you don't like DRM content, don't buy it. Content owners are still trying to figure out how they will make money. They are so caught up in trying to stop people from getting freebies, that they have lost sight of the bag of gold. In the end, it's the consumers' buying habits that will dictate the outcome. We, the consumers are in charge. Not them.

drfsupercenter · 6 May 2008, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Yes, I'm aware of the many ways to do that. It's not very difficult to free an MP3 from the DRM. The point is, that would be cheating. One you do that, it's no different than downloading for free. So now you'd be in a situation where you paid for it, but you're still a "criminal" because you created a copy that violates the terms of usage on the original.

How? I actually pay for the music... not just steal it, the program I have can only remove DRM provided that the song can can be played (which means I have the license)... I'm not talking about getting a $5 a month subscription and ripping licenses.

I know Apple keeps fighting the DRM removing programs, but they kinda facilitate it by allowing you to burn a CD... how is that any different? The quality's just better the other way.

(oh, if this violates rule 19 or something let me know... I was trying to be discrete but you guys just started talking about DRM removal)

DrinkOrDie · 7 May 2008, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drfsupercenter

How? I actually pay for the music... not just steal it, the program I have can only remove DRM provided that the song can can be played (which means I have the license)...

I won't discuss the "how" but let's just say there's a trick that works and it doesn't even involve using special software. And yes, you do have to have the license. My point is, if you do remove the DRM you violate the terms of usage on the song you paid for, making it no different than if you had simply stolen the song by downloading it free. That would defeat the purpose of paying for it in the first place.

drfsupercenter · 7 May 2008, 05:38 AM

I thought it wasn't "illegal" to decrypt DRM files, they just make it seem so to scare you.

And there is a difference... one way supports the artist (does it though?) and one way doesn't. (I question if it does because apparently the artist only gets 10 cents from a CD sale... and the record company gets the rest. I'd rather send them a dime and download the stuff for free if it prevents abuse of power like that...)

DrinkOrDie · 7 May 2008, 06:26 AM

The legal issues are an ongoing battle and it can get quite confusing, especially since laws vary depending on the country you live in. Making copies of music you paid for, for backup purposes, falls under "Fair Use" laws. This does not mean that the provider of the music has to make it possible for you to copy it. It also doesn't mean that breaking encryption is legal necessarily.

I get your point when you say there is a difference, that one way supports the artist, and one way does not. How much the artist gets from the sale of a CD is not relevant. The artist enters into a contract with the music company. The company provides a service and capital that the artist needs to get the music on disk and on the air. In a way, the product belongs more to the company than it does the artist, because the company has taken a chance and invested lots of money. The artist knows this when he signs the contract.

When you buy encrypted music, then remove the DRM, you are violating your agreement with the music company you bought it from. The issue is not whether or not it is legal to break DRM. The issue here is that you have violated the terms of use for said DRM protected song you bought. You have basically given up your rights to use the song by doing so. That makes it no different than possessing and using a pirated song.

drfsupercenter · 7 May 2008, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Making copies of music you paid for, for backup purposes, falls under "Fair Use" laws. This does not mean that the provider of the music has to make it possible for you to copy it. It also doesn't mean that breaking encryption is legal necessarily.

Isn't that the ongoing battle regarding DVDs and ARccOS and the like?

Now, I still keep the DRM protected files, I have a folder for each. So in a way it IS a backup and not a replacement... it's just that Zune doesn't work with DRM by other providers, and I have about $100 worth of music from other providers, no way I'm buying it again just so I don't have to decrypt something.

DrinkOrDie · 7 May 2008, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drfsupercenter

...no way I'm buying it again just so I don't have to decrypt something.

And you shouldn't have to! That is at the heart of the reason I refuse to pay for DRM protected content. I can't agree to the terms of use, and still justify paying for it. There are providers willing to sell without the DRM, and without such crippling restrictions on the use of the content.

2 May 2008, 05:48 AM	#2
drfsupercenter NOT an online superstore Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 4,038	Does this include Zune Marketplace? Or is that a totally different store? __________________ CYA Later: d̃ŗf̉śŭp̣ễr̀çëǹt̉ếř Visit my website!! Cool Characters Make your text cool My DVD Collection

4 May 2008, 01:42 PM	#5
DrinkOrDie It Was The Dog, I Swear! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Vancouver, WA (172 miles south of Microsoft Headquarters) Posts: 326	You won't ever catch me paying for DRM protected music or video. That's like paying rent for an apartment, but you have to get permission every time you want to get in. In the case of people who purchased music from MSN Music Service, Microsoft holds the key to playing the file, and it sounds like they are about to throw away the key. So what exactly are you paying for? Nothing. __________________ My toy: Custom Build PC Born on 03-08-08AMD Athlon64 X2 6400+ (3.21Ghz) (Black Edition) on overclock ready Asus M2R32-MVP Crossfire AMD chipset Mobo, 8-Channel HD Audio, Windows XP MCE, 2GB 800Mhz DDR2, 512MB NVIDIA GeForce 8400 GS, 500GB SATA-II HardDisks X 4 in RAID 4 mode,(1.5 TB storage capacity + 500GB eSata external) Sony MultiRec DVD-RW, PCI-HDTV Tuner, SOYO Topaz S 24" Wide LCD 1920X1200

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2 May 2008, 01:08 PM	#3
admin Administrator Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 5,182	I think this is for the defunct MSN store (replaced by Zune Marketplace most likely). This is the danger of DRM'd content ... at any moment, the content owners can decide not to let you use the content or to force you to pay again for them.

2 May 2008, 08:22 PM	#4
drfsupercenter NOT an online superstore Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 4,038	Once you have the license on your computer, usually the file will play fine until your licenses get reset or you have to reformat or something... And that's why I'm using Amazonmp3 now, no licenses to worry about and it's 256kbps, way higher than the competition.

5 May 2008, 08:13 PM	#6
drfsupercenter NOT an online superstore Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 4,038	Well there's a certain program... I can't talk about it though since I'd get in trouble, but let's just say it lets you in to your apartment automatically once you got in the first time And yeah. I don't buy DRM protected unless I have to... there's the occasional new release that I can only find on iTunes, and then I'll get it and convert it to mp3 (burn to CD and rerip). As far as videos go, I stopped buying iTunes videos once I realized there was no way to convert them or even use them outside of iTunes, but I get the free ones each week... that just sit there wasting hard drive space.

6 May 2008, 01:55 PM	#8
admin Administrator Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 5,182	Yes, if you tried to break DRM, you could be fined or even go to jail. However, the content owners could "break" your ability to play the content you've already purchased and it's perfectly legal (the licensing terms will allow this). This is where it's unfair to consumers and why DRM should be fought until nobody dares to use it anymore (just like in the music industry right now).

6 May 2008, 02:25 PM	#9
DrinkOrDie It Was The Dog, I Swear! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Vancouver, WA (172 miles south of Microsoft Headquarters) Posts: 326	It's funny. Nobody seemed to care back in the day when radio stations were playing whole album sides without commercials, all weekend long. All one had to do is pop in a blank cassette and push the record button. Ironically enough, cassettes is all they sold back then, unless you wanted vinyl. Then I could use my dual cassette recorder and make all the copies I wanted. All the sudden, now that it's digital, everyone's making a fuss. I guess content owners are trying to make DRM work because it's all they got. I'd fight for my property with no weapons other than a toothpick if it came right down to it. The thing is, they are making the product less valuable every day. When you could buy a cassette or vinyl record, then make all the copies you wanted, they were making tons of money. People were buying them by the 100 millions. There is definitely a war going on. It's time to fight. If you don't like DRM content, don't buy it. Content owners are still trying to figure out how they will make money. They are so caught up in trying to stop people from getting freebies, that they have lost sight of the bag of gold. In the end, it's the consumers' buying habits that will dictate the outcome. We, the consumers are in charge. Not them.

7 May 2008, 05:38 AM	#12
drfsupercenter NOT an online superstore Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Michigan Posts: 4,038	I thought it wasn't "illegal" to decrypt DRM files, they just make it seem so to scare you. And there is a difference... one way supports the artist (does it though?) and one way doesn't. (I question if it does because apparently the artist only gets 10 cents from a CD sale... and the record company gets the rest. I'd rather send them a dime and download the stuff for free if it prevents abuse of power like that...)

7 May 2008, 06:26 AM	#13
DrinkOrDie It Was The Dog, I Swear! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Vancouver, WA (172 miles south of Microsoft Headquarters) Posts: 326	The legal issues are an ongoing battle and it can get quite confusing, especially since laws vary depending on the country you live in. Making copies of music you paid for, for backup purposes, falls under "Fair Use" laws. This does not mean that the provider of the music has to make it possible for you to copy it. It also doesn't mean that breaking encryption is legal necessarily. I get your point when you say there is a difference, that one way supports the artist, and one way does not. How much the artist gets from the sale of a CD is not relevant. The artist enters into a contract with the music company. The company provides a service and capital that the artist needs to get the music on disk and on the air. In a way, the product belongs more to the company than it does the artist, because the company has taken a chance and invested lots of money. The artist knows this when he signs the contract. When you buy encrypted music, then remove the DRM, you are violating your agreement with the music company you bought it from. The issue is not whether or not it is legal to break DRM. The issue here is that you have violated the terms of use for said DRM protected song you bought. You have basically given up your rights to use the song by doing so. That makes it no different than possessing and using a pirated song.

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