Quality Comparison using "Mulholland Drive"

**UncasMS** · 31 Dec 2006, 06:53 PM

nice test, Hlektron

any chance you could provide the logs - especially the one for the cce conversion?

**Hlektron** · 31 Dec 2006, 07:29 PM

Do you know the avearge bit rate of your "50% steal space" Extras? Did it go below 1500 kbps?

Yes, it did actually. The average bitrate for the extras is 1389Kbps.

**Hlektron** · 31 Dec 2006, 07:33 PM

any chance you could provide the logs - especially the one for the cce conversion?

Here it is:

Code:

[02:01:26] Phase I, PREPARATION started.
- DVD-RB v1.20.4
- AVISYNTH 2.5.6.0
- CCE 2.70.2.10 encoder selected.
- "Steal Space from Extras" mode (50%) is enabled.
- Source: MULHOLLAND
- VTS_01: 3.387.362 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V & .AVS files
-- Processed 210.887 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_02: 389.566 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V & .AVS files
-- Processed 28.672 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 52,4%
- Overall Bitrate : 3.140Kbs
- Space for Video : 3.672.344KB
- Movie improvement from extra reduction = 5,9%
- HIGH/LOW/TYPICAL Bitrates: 5.325/1.254/3.140 Kbs
[02:10:15] Phase I, PREPARATION completed in 9 minutes.
[02:10:15] Phase II ENCODING started
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 0
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 1
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 2
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 3
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 4
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 5
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 6
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 7
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 8
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 9
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 10
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 11
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 12
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 13
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 14
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 15
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 16
 - Extracting Video for VTS_01 segment 17
 - Extracting STILLS for VTS_01 segment 18
 - Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 0
 - Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 1
 - Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 2
 - Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 3
 - Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 4
 - Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 5
[16:12:32] Phase II ENCODING completed in  842 minutes.
[16:12:33] Phase III, REBUILD started.
- Copying IFO, BUP, and unaltered files...
- Processing VTS_01
  - Reading/processing TMAP table...
  - Rebuilding seg 0 VOBID 1 CELLID 1
  - Rebuilding seg 1 VOBID 1 CELLID 2
  - Rebuilding seg 2 VOBID 1 CELLID 3
  - Rebuilding seg 3 VOBID 1 CELLID 4
  - Rebuilding seg 4 VOBID 1 CELLID 5
  - Rebuilding seg 5 VOBID 1 CELLID 6
  - Rebuilding seg 6 VOBID 1 CELLID 7
  - Rebuilding seg 7 VOBID 1 CELLID 8
  - Rebuilding seg 8 VOBID 1 CELLID 9
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_01
  - Rebuilding seg 9 VOBID 2 CELLID 1
  - Rebuilding seg 10 VOBID 2 CELLID 2
  - Rebuilding seg 11 VOBID 2 CELLID 3
  - Rebuilding seg 12 VOBID 2 CELLID 4
  - Rebuilding seg 13 VOBID 2 CELLID 5
  - Rebuilding seg 14 VOBID 2 CELLID 6
  - Rebuilding seg 15 VOBID 2 CELLID 7
  - Rebuilding seg 16 VOBID 2 CELLID 8
  - Rebuilding seg 17 VOBID 2 CELLID 9
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_02
  - Rebuilding seg 18 VOBID 3 CELLID 1
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_03
  - Updated VTS_C_ADT.
  - Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_01_0.IFO
  - Updating TMAP table...
- Processing VTS_02
  - Reading/processing TMAP table...
  - Rebuilding seg 0 VOBID 1 CELLID 1
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_01
  - Rebuilding seg 1 VOBID 2 CELLID 1
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_02
  - Rebuilding seg 2 VOBID 3 CELLID 1
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_03
  - Rebuilding seg 3 VOBID 4 CELLID 1
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_04
  - Rebuilding seg 4 VOBID 5 CELLID 1
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_05
  - Rebuilding seg 5 VOBID 6 CELLID 1
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_06
  - Updated VTS_C_ADT.
  - Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_02_0.IFO
  - Updating TMAP table...
- Correcting VTS Sectors...
[16:42:12] Phase III, REBUILD completed in 30 minutes.

Done.
[16:42:13] PREPARE/ENCODE/REBUILD completed in 881 min.
[17:01:37] One Click encoding activated...

**Hlektron** · 31 Dec 2006, 08:13 PM

The one for procoder:

Code:

[17:01:39] Phase I, PREPARATION started.
- DVD-RB v1.20.4
- AVISYNTH 2.5.6.0
- ProCoder selected.
- "Steal Space from Extras" mode (50%) is enabled.
- Source: MULHOLLAND
- VTS_01: 3.387.362 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V & .AVS files
-- Processed 210.887 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_02: 389.566 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V & .AVS files
-- Processed 28.672 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 52,4%
- Overall Bitrate : 3.140Kbs
- Space for Video : 3.672.344KB
- Movie improvement from extra reduction = 5,9%
- HIGH/LOW/TYPICAL Bitrates: 5.325/1.254/3.140 Kbs
[17:09:28] Phase I, PREPARATION completed in 8 minutes.
[17:09:28] Phase II ENCODING started
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 0
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 1
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 2
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 3
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 4
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 5
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 6
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 7
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 8
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 9
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 10
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 11
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 12
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 13
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 14
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 15
 - Creating M2V for VTS_01 segment 16
 - Extracting Video for VTS_01 segment 17
 - Extracting STILLS for VTS_01 segment 18
 - Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 0
 - Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 1
 - Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 2
 - Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 3
 - Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 4
 - Creating M2V for VTS_02 segment 5
[08:02:07] Phase II ENCODING completed in  893 minutes.
[08:02:08] Phase III, REBUILD started.
- Copying IFO, BUP, and unaltered files...
- Processing VTS_01
  - Reading/processing TMAP table...
  - Rebuilding seg 0 VOBID 1 CELLID 1
  - Rebuilding seg 1 VOBID 1 CELLID 2
  - Rebuilding seg 2 VOBID 1 CELLID 3
  - Rebuilding seg 3 VOBID 1 CELLID 4
  - Rebuilding seg 4 VOBID 1 CELLID 5
  - Rebuilding seg 5 VOBID 1 CELLID 6
  - Rebuilding seg 6 VOBID 1 CELLID 7
  - Rebuilding seg 7 VOBID 1 CELLID 8
  - Rebuilding seg 8 VOBID 1 CELLID 9
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_01
  - Rebuilding seg 9 VOBID 2 CELLID 1
  - Rebuilding seg 10 VOBID 2 CELLID 2
  - Rebuilding seg 11 VOBID 2 CELLID 3
  - Rebuilding seg 12 VOBID 2 CELLID 4
  - Rebuilding seg 13 VOBID 2 CELLID 5
  - Rebuilding seg 14 VOBID 2 CELLID 6
  - Rebuilding seg 15 VOBID 2 CELLID 7
  - Rebuilding seg 16 VOBID 2 CELLID 8
  - Rebuilding seg 17 VOBID 2 CELLID 9
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_02
  - Rebuilding seg 18 VOBID 3 CELLID 1
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_03
  - Updated VTS_C_ADT.
  - Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_01_0.IFO
  - Updating TMAP table...
- Processing VTS_02
  - Reading/processing TMAP table...
  - Rebuilding seg 0 VOBID 1 CELLID 1
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_01
  - Rebuilding seg 1 VOBID 2 CELLID 1
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_02
  - Rebuilding seg 2 VOBID 3 CELLID 1
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_03
  - Rebuilding seg 3 VOBID 4 CELLID 1
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_04
  - Rebuilding seg 4 VOBID 5 CELLID 1
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_05
  - Rebuilding seg 5 VOBID 6 CELLID 1
  - Updating NAVPACKS for VOBID_06
  - Updated VTS_C_ADT.
  - Updated VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.
- Updated IFO: VTS_02_0.IFO
  - Updating TMAP table...
- Correcting VTS Sectors...
[08:24:29] Phase III, REBUILD completed in 22 minutes.

Done.
[08:24:29] PREPARE/ENCODE/REBUILD completed in 923 min.
[15:12:02] One Click encoding activated...

**Sharc** · 31 Dec 2006, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Hlektron

Yes, it did actually. The average bitrate for the extras is 1389Kbps.

No wonder. At this low bitrate CCE is almost useless in my experience.

**UncasMS** · 31 Dec 2006, 08:40 PM

i couldnt agree more

cce is no good for sub-2000 bitrates

**rahzel** · 31 Dec 2006, 08:45 PM

thats why... i've never gone under 3000, not even for LOTR or King Kong.

the other encoders did a good job at such low bitrates, though.

**Hlektron** · 31 Dec 2006, 08:49 PM

So, are you suggesting no stealing from the extras at all? Because the merit is mere anyways. By selecting 50% I got 5,9% improvement, by selecting 25% the improvement was by 3%. If 50% is out of the question quality wise, then 25% would seem a preferable solution, but then, 3% improvement is no big deal. So, should I just leave the extras "unstolen"?

PS. The average bitrate of the original source (the extras) was 5222Kbps. So, I guess 1389 was a dramatic drop in bitrate.

**rahzel** · 31 Dec 2006, 08:53 PM

no need to redo the test. i think most people know that CCE is not the greatest choice for bitrates at or below 2500 or so. in the main movie screens, CCE does a good job imo. one thing screenshots don't really capture well, is blockyness in soft backgrounds. i've done tests myself (with the movie Gladiator) where HC and Procoder was a LITTLE blocky, whereas CCE was a little noisy when viewing the actual video (not screenshots). i, personally would take noisy over blocky.

CCE is still my encoder of choice. i never do full DVD rips, i always just keep the menu and movie. so again, i never go under 3000 (maybe slightly).

**UncasMS** · 31 Dec 2006, 08:57 PM

when using "steal space 50%" i'd go for the half d1 resolution

i should think it'll make quite a difference in your case as well as you are dealing with a completely different bit/pixel ratio

**Hlektron** · 31 Dec 2006, 09:02 PM

i should think it'll make quite a difference in your case as well as you are dealing with a completely different bit/pixel ratio

The only reason I avoid Half-D1 is compatibility with stand-alone players. Or am I too cautious?
Regardless of compatibility, is 25% + Half-D1 a good solution?

**Hlektron** · 31 Dec 2006, 09:08 PM

one thing screenshots don't really capture well, is blockyness in soft backgrounds. i've done tests myself (with the movie Gladiator) where HC and Procoder was a LITTLE blocky, whereas CCE was a little noisy when viewing the actual video (not screenshots).

I totally agree, I faced some blockiness during reproduction (especially from Procoder) in still background and in rapid scene changes, which wasn't demonstrated well in the screenshots. CCE had a grainy approach, as you mentioned. But it suffers in low bitrates and this kinda makes me a bit skeptic about using cce.

**rahzel** · 31 Dec 2006, 09:25 PM

well, i think it's safe to use for anything above 2500-3000kbps. since you have all 3 encoders, you could use HC or Procoder for low bitrate movies, and CCE for higher bitrate movies. you wouldn't be the only one that uses multiple encoders; many people do this.

**Hlektron** · 31 Dec 2006, 09:37 PM

well, i think it's safe to use for anything above 2500-3000kbps. since you have all 3 encoders, you could use HC or Procoder for low bitrate movies, and CCE for higher bitrate movies. you wouldn't be the only one that uses multiple encoders; many people do this.

You're right, I wouldn't even think about using other than Procoder for JFK, for instance.

I know i may become wearisome, but could anyone explain why the colors of the re-encoded video streams don't match the original?

**jdobbs** · 31 Dec 2006, 09:54 PM

Half-D1 is completely DVD compliant. The player is required to support it in order to get the "DVD" symbol on the side.

893 minutes.... ahhhhhhhh!

Looking at your log -- in this case I'd never steal space from extras with CCE (I personally almost never steal from extras anyway). You're making the extras look terrible -- and all you are gaining is 185Kbs in the main feature. That isn't going to make any significant improvement.

But this whole test brings up an interesting scenario. What if DVD-RB could choose a different encoder based upon bitrate???

Quality Comparison using "Mulholland Drive"

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