Kiss DP-x & Ogg/ogm

[SpikeSpiegel]

Hi!

I'm planning to buy a Kiss DP-450 (or 500) and I wanna re-encode some movies to make them compatible with it.
I know that it supports OggVorbis codec, but not ogm container, so the question is:
If I mux an AVI file with an ogg track, what kind of problems could I experience opening it with a Kiss player?

I know what happens doing such a thing with "software" players like WinMediaP (async, etc), but I wanna know if it's the same, or if there are no problems, with Kiss

If the results are really bad (no audio, great desync or...blue screen ,is it possible to put on CD video and audio track separately and open them simultaneously with Kiss?

Anyway, which is the better (or less destructive) way to mux Avi ang Ogg?

As always I'm really concise
thanks in advance for your help

[ChristianHJW]

There is currently no way to play a movie with a MPEG4 video and a Vorbis audio stream on any KiSS device, no matter what container you choose.

The problem here is that the SIGMA EM 8500 and 8550 chips dont offer enough processing power to allow that, as Vorbis alone will need all of it already. Bear in mind, higher compression will always mean more complex en/decoding algorithms.

My recommendation :

Store them as they are now ( as .ogm ) and wait for MKV support in the next generation units based on the EM 86xx chips

More info here

[SpikeSpiegel]

Understood, I thought it to be a "firmware problem", but, if the chip is not enough powerful to decompress divx&ogg streams at the same time, there's nothing to do.

Do all versions (DP-450/470/500/508/558/1000/1500) use that chip?
on the Kiss site it's not specified...

[ChristianHJW]

DP 450 uses EM 8500, all other EM 8550, but both have the same processing power, main differentiation is that the 8550 has a more powerful bus architecture ...

[SpikeSpiegel]

Ok, so I have to wait a little longer, thanks for the advice

I can't open the doom9 forum's thread (a bug, a virus, too many people online, dunno), so i red the matroska.com FAQ, but I still have some doubts:
What is exactly the diffence between OGM and MKV? Which features/kind of traks are supported by MKV and not by OGM and vice-versa?
When I encode anime movies I use to mux only the Jap audio track + text subtitles(.srt...I don't like fixed subtitles);
sometimes (VERY RARELY) the dubbing in Italian is not so bad, so I mux the Ita track too using OGM container
I've red somewere that this could give problems (???) and MVK not, could u explain this?

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by SpikeSpiegel Ok, so I have to wait a little longer, thanks for the advice

... maybe not SOOO long ... we will see ...

What is exactly the diffence between OGM and MKV? Which features/kind of traks are supported by MKV and not by OGM and vice-versa?

As of today, MKV can do anything OGM can. MKV, on the other hand, has the following additional advatages :
- lower overhead ( up to 6 MB for 1 CD )
- RealVideo 9 video support
- RealAudio support
- SSA subtitles
- powerful tagging system
- attachements ( cover JPEGs, lyrics, codecs, etc. )
- a shell extension for Windows Explorer to read/write tags etc.
- support in DirectShow capturing tools ( VirtualVCR, AVT2000 )
- the ability for video editing without the presence of a codec ( impossible in OGM/OGG )
- soon : vobsub in MKV ( no OCR necessary for the subs on DVD, can be mixed with SRT/SSA in the same file )
- soon : compressed vobsubs
- soon : MPEG2 video support

Is that enough ??

When I encode anime movies I use to mux only the Jap audio track + text subtitles(.srt...I don't like fixed subtitles);

... good, me also ! Soon you can save the OCR step for the japanese subs and mux them as they are ...

sometimes (VERY RARELY) the dubbing in Italian is not so bad, so I mux the Ita track too using OGM container
I've red somewere that this could give problems (???) and MVK not, could u explain this?

.. yes, this is true. OggDS doesnt support playback of audio tracks with different channel number and/or sampling rate in the same file. This is not a OGM limitation, but of Tobias' splitter filter ( to be more precise : the stream switcher ).

In matroska this works all fine, but stream switching needs either TCMP, MPC, Zoomplayer or BSplayer as players ....

[SpikeSpiegel]

Originally posted by ChristianHJW
Soon you can save the OCR step for the japanese subs and mux them as they are ...

Do you mean that I can extract subtitles from DVD in theyre original format and mux them to MKV?

About MVK features, I mostly appreciate:
1)ssa support (for most movies .srt are OK, but yellow subtitles are perfect for anime and if the font can be changed it's better!)
2)lower overhead (...CD-Rs aren't free neither here
3)"the ability for video editing without the presence of a codec" (nice, but I fear that it could increase the ovehead)

It seems that I must get used of the .mkv extention

But What about "vobsub in MKV"? What does it imply (about compatibility, speed, space needed)? this is maybe related to my next question:
Do Kiss players support subtitles in Avi files?
And more importantly: why I can mux subtitles with AVI files with SubMux? Shouldn't it be impossible or I misunderstood?

[ChristianHJW]

Originally posted by SpikeSpiegel
[B]
Do you mean that I can extract subtitles from DVD in theyre original format and mux them to MKV?

... yes

About MVK features, I mostly appreciate:
3)"the ability for video editing without the presence of a codec" (nice, but I fear that it could increase the ovehead)

... nope, not at all. All matroska files can be easily edited because the muxing tools are not dumb, but they examine the streams that have to be muxed very accurately and thus know about the content in the MKV file very well. Every MKV file has a very well defined structure that way, and so it can be edited without the codec.

It seems that I must get used of the .mkv extention

... definitely ...

But What about "vobsub in MKV"? What does it imply (about compatibility, speed, space needed)? this is maybe related to my next question:

... every DVD player can play vobsub subs, so the requirements are very low.

Do Kiss players support subtitles in Avi files?

... only SRT and only external files, no vobsubs .

And more importantly: why I can mux subtitles with AVI files with SubMux? Shouldn't it be impossible or I misunderstood?

.... the OpenDML AVI specs allow it in general, but generally speaking its not a good idea. The best tool to do that, if you absolutely wnat to do that, is alexnoe's AviMux-GUI.

[SpikeSpiegel]

Perfect
I'm sure MKV will have success:
if it's the only way to mux a 5.1 audio stream to DivX/Xvid surely there are many "potential users" (=potential Kiss products buyers).
Here the situation is a little different, almost nobody have ever heard of MKV/Ogg/OGM, kinda:
"What do u think about OGM?" "no, no, I don't thrust genetically modified stuff, thanks..."


I'm writing a DVD->DivX/VideoEditing guide in Italian and surely there will be a "MKV Chapter"
Thanks for your help!