Need help using Xvid in VirtualDub

[celtic_druid]

You can find my builds at:

http://celticdruid.no-ip.com/xvid/

also via google (1st page for "ffdshow", way down for "XviD").

[Video Idio]

OK, thanks CD, I'll give that a try after I'm done capturing the video I'm currently making. Thanks for all the help.

[Video Idio]

You can find my builds at:

http://celticdruid.no-ip.com/xvid/

also via google (1st page for "ffdshow", way down for "XviD").

BTW, I have P4 Northwood HyperThreading CPU, but not Dual Core. Do I use the P4 7z link, or the Intel Dual Threading 7z? Also, do I have to install both fdshow and Xvid, or just Xvid to compress with Xvid?

I am now done with the capturing and most of the editing of my latest video, but I want to make sure I get the codecs set up right before trying anything new to me.

[celtic_druid]

The gcc builds are all old. Go with XviD.cvs.head.exe or xvid.cvs.head.2006.04.21.7z. They are both the same thing. Just with/without installer. Multithreading is now in the CVS and configurable via the VfW GUI. All generic builds are ICL9 compiled and should run as fast as anything else on a P4. Most of the speed intensive code is assembly anyway.

No, you don't need ffdshow, although it is still a usefull thing to have.

I suppose I should upload some new gcc builds. They get built anyway everytime I update libxvidcore (for linking with mencoder, etc.).

[Video Idio]

The gcc builds are all old. Go with XviD.cvs.head.exe or xvid.cvs.head.2006.04.21.7z. They are both the same thing. Just with/without installer. Multithreading is now in the CVS and configurable via the VfW GUI.

I don't recall seeing anything by the XviD.cvs.head.exe designation in that link, but I'll check again. I take it by configurable you mean set for dual or single core, etc, although if there's a setting for threaded or non threaded progs, I'm not sure I would know which programs are which, but I think it's safe to assume I would not use that feature for compressing Far Cry or FEAR if there is such a thing.

BTW, I forgot to ask, if I compress with the XviD.cvs.head.exe codec via VDub, will I have to play the finished movie in VDub too, or will it play in Movie Maker? Currently I don't have any plugins installed in Movie Maker, as some can cause problems. Ideally I'd like my videos to be as accessable as possible so they get watched more. I did a sample compression using MM, the 1st of which is my largest successfull MM video yet, at 227MB.

I have since trimmed the file size down to about 170MB by using 576x432, rather than 640x480, and used 4x speed on many of the non action scenes where I move from one area to another. MM does have some appeal as far as file size goes, you can compress pretty small with it. That's the one thing I worry about with Xvid. I'm starting to discover most don't want to download a 200+ MB movie just to watch once.

(EDITED)
"I don't recall seeing anything by the XviD.cvs.head.exe designation in that link"

Oops, my bad, I skipped the 1st Xvid link that said change log cuz I thought it was just a readme of the changes for the one listed below it.

[Video Idio]

Just did a successfull test run using the suggested exe version of Xvid on a 27 sec 24.4 MB clip using 576x432 resizing (from 512x384 capture) using Lancos3. I did some rough estimating based on what I got the original entire project down to with MM, and shot for a 4800Kb target size.

I must have made a mistake in further tweaking settings though, when I went back to the main page of the GUI it said around 704 kbps bit rate, which I thought would be too low for decent quality, being as I used about 1831 kbps using MM. When I set it to 1831, the end clip came out about 10.2 MB, vs 4.8. By my calculations that would mean I need to go about 47% of 1831 to hit 4.8 MB, or about 862 kbps.

I don't know if this means the claculator works very conservatively, or I'm just using it wrong, probably the latter. The great news is the quality is stunning, it plays in Movie Maker, and I couldn't be more pleased so far. I am now a big fan of Xvid and you Celtic Druid. Thanks so much for making this stuff so accessable and putting up with my noob questions.
I am so far "X"static about Xvid!

P.S. Just remembered one other question I had. I captured using max quality (10) and 25FPS in Game Came at 512x384. In testing it gave me the highest bit rate in video quality and was pretty manageable in gameplay FPS. Upon doing test compressions in Movie Maker I found that using 25 and 30 FPS compression resulted in the same end file size. This left me confused, I assumed 25 would be less in file size. So, I then wondered which is the best way to go, should I compress at the higher FPS of 30, is there any benefit to it, or does it just slow down the compression process? It seems to me you don't need to exceed the capture FPS when setting the compression FPS. The Xvid test was done in 25FPS btw, perhaps it detects the capture FPS used, or is it just set to that by default?

[celtic_druid]

The bitrate is bits/sec. So the framerate makes no difference, just means that the higher the framerate, the less bits per frame since there are more frames per sec.

The XviD calculator (unless you select none) takes into account container overhead. Framerate will effect this.

[Video Idio]

One of the things I can't figure is why when I use either the Xvid panel or a separate audio codec selection and bit rate, I don't see anything but PCM in the properties of the compressed file. The little graph that's in the upper left of the screen shows the blue bars changing during compression, but not the green, I assumed the green was the audio.

So far I have noticed no video improvement over the WMV9 codecs if I go as low with the file size. That clip I said was my test clip comes out to about 6.4MB with WMV9, rather than the 4.8 I'd estimated. That's at about 1800kbps, if I use that high of bit rate with Xvid the file is way bigger. I have to use about 600kbps with Xvid to get it to that file size, and then the quality really suffers. I tried two pass compression as well, same problem.

I did notice though that after a certain bit rate is used with WMV, going higher gains no quality. My guess so far is that Xvid exceeds WMV9 in quality at higher bit rates, but WMV9 is the most efficient for smaller file sizes. I kinda have to be realistic when it comes to file size though. Not many people want to download a 200+ MB file of a video game they already know and have played.

[celtic_druid]

PCM audio can be quite large. If you are lowering the video bitrate to compensate then no wonder it looks bad.

XviD is just a video codec. Configuring it has nothing to do with audio. The calculator includes audio so its filesize can be taken into account, that is all. The XviD display status window displays frame tyes only. Not audio/video.

All codecs will become saturated, given a high enough bitrate. I'd suggest capping XviD to Q2 though since Q1 has not real quality advantage considering the size difference between it and Q2. A CQM (Custom Quant Matrix) is a better approach.

[Video Idio]

PCM audio can be quite large. If you are lowering the video bitrate to compensate then no wonder it looks bad.

XviD is just a video codec. Configuring it has nothing to do with audio. The calculator includes audio so its filesize can be taken into account, that is all. The XviD display status window displays frame tyes only. Not audio/video.

All codecs will become saturated, given a high enough bitrate. I'd suggest capping XviD to Q2 though since Q1 has not real quality advantage considering the size difference between it and Q2. A CQM (Custom Quant Matrix) is a better approach.

Lowering the video bit rate was necesary to achieve the same file size the WMV9 codec produced. Like I said, I have to be practical about file size, and so far WMV9 is definately more efficient at smaller file sizes without losing quality.

If Xvid is just a video codec why does it have a bit rate adjuster for audio on it's second page, makes no sense to me?

I don't understand the Q1, Q2 custom Quant Matrix stuff, but can you just tell me if there is a way to make Xvid show as detailed as WMV9 at smaller file sizes. If not it's no good to me, I don't get involved in large file sizes really.

Seems to me if I have to use 600kbps vs 1800kbps just to reach the same file size, there's no way it will ever look as good in small files as the WMV9, reguardless of settings used. The only other way I can explain what I think to be the case is that it appears there is a certain bit rate below which WMV9 is better, and above which Xvid is better. That cutoff point is probably the WMV9 stauration point as you put it, but it's likely a higher bit rate than I'm used to using and would require very large file size.

[anonymez]

If Xvid is just a video codec why does it have a bit rate adjuster for audio on it's second page, makes no sense to me?

xvid is calculating bitrate based on final file size, which is video+audio (+avi overhead).

but can you just tell me if there is a way to make Xvid show as detailed as WMV9 at smaller file sizes

all depends on settings. set 2-pass vbr, max motion search & vhq, 2 bframes, qpel & gmc should get you there

[celtic_druid]

As I said, if you are lowering XviD's video bitrate to compensate for PCM audio, then of course it is going to look bad compared to the much higher bitrate WMV3.

[Video Idio]

xvid is calculating bitrate based on final file size, which is video+audio (+avi overhead).



all depends on settings. set 2-pass vbr, max motion search & vhq, 2 bframes, qpel & gmc should get you there

OK, I think I understand now. The audio tab in Xvid is only to make the calculator adjust for the audio bit rate you set in VDub's audio compression page.

I'll look again to find the settings you described concerning 2-pass, VBR, etc, and do some more tests.

I see what you mean about the PCM skewing the combined bit rate too Celtic. I did try adjusting the audio bit rate manually and finally found a codec that would take adjustments. At first I tired to use MS codecs and it wouldn't let me, maybe because MS only allows their audio codecs to be used with their video codecs?

Anyway, much of it makes sense now, I just need to make a successfull audio bit rate adjustment. I generally use 160 or 192 kbps when using the MS codecs. I don't know why, but when I right click on the compressed file after using Movie Maker and the WMV9 codecs, I don't see the exact audio bit rate used listed, it always shows the 1411kbps that it was when it was captured. The file size of the compressed videos does change with different audio bit rates used though, so I passed it off as XP not reading the audio rate on the compressed file correctly.

[Video Idio]

set 2-pass vbr, max motion search & vhq, 2 bframes, qpel & gmc should get you there

OK, I found all those settings, but now I need to pick a good audio codec to download as the ones shown in VDub aren't what I need. I get an error when trying to use the MS audio codecs so it won't let me use those.

I have heard Ogg Vorbis makes a good one, but requires using .ogm format. I'd like to keep the compressed file compatible with Windows Media Player if possible. Since there is an Ogg Vorbis audio codec listed on the WMPlugins.com site that MS lists on their WMP site, I assume .ogm files are compatible with WMP?

Also, I read a bit about the use of a custom matrix like SixOfNine and a guide by short-media.com about Xvid that gives details about the use of a matrix. Short-guide.com advertises on the top of their Xvid guide that 100% quality @ 20% file size is possible with Xvid. That would be awesome if I could get those results, but is the use of a custom matrix necessary to achieve them? They also talk about Metroska being a very good container, but it sounds complex to use, and I'm not sure the .mkv format will play in WMP.

This guide is about a year and a half old, but seems to be very good: http://www.short-media.com/printcont...print=r&id=267

Basically I only capture and compress segments of my video games. I rent and don't catalog DVD movies, so I'm not interested in any codec features that support things in that respect that I don't do.

You guys have been great, sorry for my slow learning curve but I'm beginning to see just what this codec can do if used properly.

(EDITED) Just downloaded the Ogg Vorbis direct show filter, but it doesn't show up in VDub's list of audio codecs.

[anonymez]

but now I need to pick a good audio codec to download as the ones shown in VDub aren't what I need

for avi LAME mp3 should suffice, you could also go AAC

I'd like to keep the compressed file compatible with Windows Media Player if possible

install oggds filter or haali media splitter

Short-guide.com advertises on the top of their Xvid guide that 100% quality @ 20% file size is possible with Xvid.

100% quality would mean lossless. constant quant 1 will give you that, but will end up larger than the original. even if it means "no artefacts" it still doesn't hold true.

Metroska being a very good container, but it sounds complex to use, and I'm not sure the .mkv format will play in WMP.

it's not complex. install haali media splitter, then do a search. plenty of tools for (de)muxing streams